Things Are More Dire Today: An Interview with John Seel, Author of The New Copernicans

In addition to writing about John Seel’s new book, The New Copernicans, I called him. I had a few questions about the book, and about his argument that a new generation—millennials—is bringing a new way of viewing the Christian faith to the church in North America. Find that interview below.

What is the reaction to the book?

There has been positive reaction from younger church leaders. They find in the book an on-ramp for the way they view faith, a new way of being Christian that isn’t so reactionary.

Leaders of the institutional church are another story. They have not responded as positively. I think we will have to enter into a more crisis mode before those who are currently in power in the institutions of the church begin to see the need to make changes.

The book is a warning, but not alarmist. Was that a deliberate choice?

As a social scientist, I always want to be careful not to predict the future. Things can always turn out differently!

But I also felt it was best not to say “the sky is falling.” That can sometimes push people away from dealing with your arguments.

On the other hand, a lot has changed since I started writing the book in 2016. Things are a lot more dire than I anticipated. If anything, I think my tone is more moderate than reality would suggest.

You use the Titanic as a metaphor—that the evangelical church, like that doomed ship, is headed for an iceberg. What are the parallels with the evangelical church today?

I say the Titanic was sunk by hubris—the belief that the ship was unsinkable. Some evangelical church leaders may feel the same way about their denominations today, that they have the truth and they will prevail.

But that is only one part of the problem. That hubris created the conditions for the crisis that faced the Titanic. What also contributed to the sinking was the way the captain reacted to the crisis when it emerged.

If he had made a different decision, the ship would not have been sunk.

I see institutional church leaders behaving the same way. Instead of changing course to deal with the crisis, they are doubling-down on the same course.

I’m seeing organizations adopt strict and narrow statements of faith that employees have to sign. Christian colleges and universities are doing the same thing, adopting draconian lifestyle policies.

Instead of becoming more open and welcoming to the way millennials see the world and their faith, they are building bigger walls and firmer boundaries.

You seem very positive about the way these new Copernicans view faith.

I am! I think their perspective is an improvement over the way we do church today. They are more Trinitarian, incarnational, communal and revolutionary than those of us who are older. They are more like Jesus, in my opinion.

Which isn’t to say they have it all figured out, or they won’t make mistakes. But the church can really learn from them.

You wrote this book as an American, and to American evangelicals. What is your take on the state of American Christianity today?

One of the big problems in the U.S. is the belief in our exceptionalism—that we are special, the best, that we have it all together.

This makes us think we have nothing to learn from others; our borders are the biggest one-way mirror in the world. When we look at other countries, all we see is ourselves, looking back.

That makes us blind to the things we could learn from other places, like churches in Canada and Europe.

Canadians are 10-20 years ahead of us in dealing with this crisis, and the European churches are ahead of Canada. We could learn a lot from Christians in Canada and Europe, if we could see beyond our borders.

You don’t mention the LGBTQ issue much in the book. Yet that is a critical demarcation line between younger Christians and their elders. Why not?

That is a pivotal issue. The problem is that it is so polarized. I didn’t highlight it because it could have been all blown out of proportion, causing some not to read the book.

I don’t like the way the debate has been framed. Some churches and organizations have made it a primary issue. It isn’t the most important issue. Following Jesus is the most important thing, not building walls and doing border maintenance to see who is in and who is out.

I am opposed to a binary approach, that it is either right or wrong. I like the way Pope Francis responded when asked about it [LGBTQ]: “Who am I to judge?”

Personally, I am an aggressively affirming traditionalist. But I don’t want to get drawn into a battle over it.

What is your take on the situation in Canada? For example, Trinity Western University recently lost its case to start a law school.

I think supporters of TWU need to stop seeing everything in terms of liberty issues, that evangelicals are being put upon. They should stop playing the victim.

This is a huge opportunity to redefine who they are, to reach out in a new way to younger generations. Otherwise, this is going to blow up in their face.

One of the reasons schools like TWU, and other church organizations, are reluctant to change is because their donors may stop giving if they do.

That’s true, and I understand that. But if they don’t start to change, millennials will blow right past them and find other places to support when they are in a position to do so.